More Stacking Questions - Guild Wars Forums

Fezz · Feb 12, 2005, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Was clicking around, trying to think of new build ideas, and began wondering what all, and how do things stack, if they do infact stack.

First One:
Percent chance to block:

Quote:

Bonetti's Defence:
Description: For 5-10 seconds, you have a 75% chance to block incoming melee attacks. You gain 5 energy for each successful parry. Bonetti's Defense ends if you use a skill.

And,

Quote:

Disciplined Stance:
Description: For 5-10 seconds, you have a 75% chance to block attacks and have +24 armor, but you cannot gain adrenaline. Disciplined Stance ends if you use an adrenal skill.

Assuming that the conditions are right for both to go into effect would they stack causing you to have 75%+75%(93-94%), or would only the last one matter? Is this any different if its Enchantments such as Aegis and Guardian?

Same again for Attack Speed:
ex. Frenzy+Flurry

Same questions, does it get even faster, or only the last on matters?

And for all other % things(Speed, Evade, ...)?

Ensign · Feb 12, 2005, 01:43 AM // 01:43

You can only be in one stance at a time.

Some effects, like speeds buffs, do not stack, while others, like miss chances, do. You treat each one individually so the net effect is multiplicitive. Two skills with 75% chance of blocking would give you a 94% block chance. Attack speed buffs I believe are linear but I can't up and check that right now. =)

Peace,
-CxE

Fezz · Feb 12, 2005, 04:09 AM // 04:09

A little different sort of stacking.

Evade and Block; Is Evade tested, then Block, or are they just stacked by percent, and you just either Evade, Block, or neither?

Ensign · Feb 12, 2005, 04:19 AM // 04:19

Well, the sane way to handle this is to just handle the effects in the order they came in - either First In, First Out (FIFO) or Last In, First Out (LIFO). There isn't a universal priority table, instead they make one on the fly.

So let's assume that it's LIFO, like enchantment removal and the like. Let's say that you cast a 25% evade effect on someone, then a 50% block effect, then a 25% block effect after that - so that they have all three running. Now, when an attack comes in, it first checks against the 25% block effect. If the attack isn't blocked, then it checks against the 50% block effect. If neither trigger, then it tries the 25% evade. If none of those trigger, the attack just lands as normal. If you'd cast the defenses in the opposite order, it would first check to evade, then 50% block, then 25% block. The net result is the same - a 72% chance to stop the attack.

Basically you just apply all of the possible effects, run through them one at a time, and whatever happens happens. =)

Peace,
-CxE

Draken · Feb 14, 2005, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Some effects, like speeds buffs, do not stack,

I had windborne speed cast on me while i was using sprint and it stacked atleast in the last BWE cuz i was moven like a bat outa hell

. Anyway stacking is wierd some skills stack some don't.

This is what i do know:
-Stances cancel eachother and themselves out.
-Enchantments hexes and conditions don't stack with themselves they just refresh the timer, this includes AE affects like Ward against harm. One notable exception to this is exhastion stacks with itself.

Similar affects can stack like elemental attunment and fire attument but this is not always true since spirit of failure doesn't stack with blind. While blind is in effect spirit of failure will never trigger but as soon as the timer runs out on blind spirit of failure starts working again.

I wanted to compile a list of rules that can sort of be applied to see if things stack and a list of things that dont stack but im only a lowly BWE player i dont have much time to do such things.

Freyas · Feb 14, 2005, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draken

This is what i do know:
-Stances cancel eachother and themselves out.
-Enchantments hexes and conditions don't stack with themselves they just refresh the timer, this includes AE affects like Ward against harm. One notable exception to this is exhastion stacks with itself.

Similar affects can stack like elemental attunment and fire attument but this is not always true since spirit of failure doesn't stack with blind. While blind is in effect spirit of failure will never trigger but as soon as the timer runs out on blind spirit of failure starts working again.

A couple mistakes here- stances only cancel out a previous stance that you have in effect. If you're using Bonetti's Defense, and use Defensive Stance, you lose your Bonetti's Defense, but you still get Defensive Stance for it's duration, or until you use another stance.

The same Enchantment/Hex does not stack effects multiple times if reapplied, but effects caused by multiple similar enchantments/hexes do stack. If you have Healing Seed and Healing Hands on you, and are hit by attacks, you will gain the life from both enchantments. Similarly, if you have Price of Failure and Spirit of Failure on you, you get a 43%(.25+.75*.25) chance to miss with your attacks. However, Spirit of Failure currently only gives you energy each time it causes you to miss, meaning that you won't get your energy back every time you miss. Blind and Spirit of Failure do stack, giving a 92.5%(.9+.1*.25) miss chance, but you'll only get the energy on the times that Spirit of Failure causes the miss, as opposed to Blind causing you to miss your attacks. Price of Failure will trigger for every miss, leading me to believe that Price of Failure either is not working correctly, or just has a misleading description.

As for the origional question, Ensign is correct. The way to figure out your chance of getting hit by an attack is:
A = first evasion skill %
B = second evasion skill %
C = third evasion skill %
...
I'm assuming all percentages are taken in decimal form(divide by 100)
Chance to block/evade = A +(1-A)*B + (1- [A+(1-A)*B])*C...

The easiest way to figure it out is to figure out the chance to block/evade after each skill.

So with:
Guardian = 40% chance to evade
Shield of Deflection = 60% chance to evade
Shield Stance = 75% chance to block
you'll end up with
Chance to block/evade = .75+(1-.75)*.6 = .9 = 90%
Chance to block/evade = .9+(1-.9)*.4 = 94%

Basically, you will get the full amount of evasion from the first skill that takes effect(which I believe is the last one used, but in most cases it doesn't matter). After that, each additional evasion skill only takes effect if the first evasion skill didn't, so for each additional skill you have to enhance your evasion, you get less of an additional effect. With the situation above with Shield Stance, Shield of Deflection, and Guardian, it's not really worth having the Guardian active, as it only contributes 4% more than you'd get with merely Shield Stance and Shield of Deflection. The overall blocking percentage will come out the same regardless of which are applied first, so overall, stacking two evasion buffs can be worthwhile, but in general, additional buffs after that are wasted.

Draken · Feb 14, 2005, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Ok well when i tested spirit of failure it didnt work while my target was blind but its been a while since i tested it like 3 bwe's ago(and by didnt work i mean i never saw it give me mana while blind was on). Mabye the percentage that it goes off is really really low with blind applied. Each time i tested it i think i applied spirit of failure first then blinded would it be diffrent if i did it the other way around?

Quote:

A couple mistakes here- stances only cancel out a previous stance that you have in effect. If you're using Bonetti's Defense, and use Defensive Stance, you lose your Bonetti's Defense, but you still get Defensive Stance for it's duration, or until you use another stance.

Sorry i didnt state that more clearly but I've read that if you cast mantra of recall then cast it again it cancels out the first mantra of recall giving you the bonus mana and you then have the recall stance on you again. hence it doesnt refresh the timer it cancels out the old stance and starts the new one which is slightly diffrent. Either way you cant have two stances going at the same time.

Here is a Link to the whole thread in which i was refering to above.

Freyas · Feb 15, 2005, 12:13 AM // 00:13

I believe the last hex/condition applied is the first to be calculated in, meaning that if you cast spirit of failure before blinding them, they'll miss 90% from the blind, and then you have a 25% chance that if they still hit through blind that Spirit of Failure will trigger- giving you an abismally low 2.5% of attacks that will gain you energy. If you do them in reverse order, you should have your normal 25% Spirit of Failure energy boost.

Yes, if you recast a stance while it is still active(mantra of recall, notably), it ends any previous stances and the new stance takes effect, even if it's the same as one you had on previously. So, you can cast Mantra of Recall to end your previous one for the energy gain, and you'll have the Mantra of Recall that you just cast active in order to gain energy from it once it recharges.

For your post, I figured you understood what was going on with stances, but the way that you phrased the post, it was confusing to anybody who didn't already know what was going on- that's why I posted the clarification on it.

Feb 12, 2005, 01:43 AM // 01:43	#2
Ensign Just Plain Fluffy Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Berkeley, CA Guild: Idiot Savants	You can only be in one stance at a time. Some effects, like speeds buffs, do not stack, while others, like miss chances, do. You treat each one individually so the net effect is multiplicitive. Two skills with 75% chance of blocking would give you a 94% block chance. Attack speed buffs I believe are linear but I can't up and check that right now. =) Peace, -CxE __________________ Don't argue with idiots. They bring you to their level and beat you with experience. Last edited by Ensign; Feb 12, 2005 at 01:45 AM // 01:45..

Feb 12, 2005, 04:19 AM // 04:19	#4
Ensign Just Plain Fluffy Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Berkeley, CA Guild: Idiot Savants	Well, the sane way to handle this is to just handle the effects in the order they came in - either First In, First Out (FIFO) or Last In, First Out (LIFO). There isn't a universal priority table, instead they make one on the fly. So let's assume that it's LIFO, like enchantment removal and the like. Let's say that you cast a 25% evade effect on someone, then a 50% block effect, then a 25% block effect after that - so that they have all three running. Now, when an attack comes in, it first checks against the 25% block effect. If the attack isn't blocked, then it checks against the 50% block effect. If neither trigger, then it tries the 25% evade. If none of those trigger, the attack just lands as normal. If you'd cast the defenses in the opposite order, it would first check to evade, then 50% block, then 25% block. The net result is the same - a 72% chance to stop the attack. Basically you just apply all of the possible effects, run through them one at a time, and whatever happens happens. =) Peace, -CxE __________________ Don't argue with idiots. They bring you to their level and beat you with experience.

Feb 15, 2005, 12:13 AM // 00:13	#8
Freyas Champion of the Absurd Join Date: Jan 2005 Guild: Spirits of War Profession: Mo/W	I believe the last hex/condition applied is the first to be calculated in, meaning that if you cast spirit of failure before blinding them, they'll miss 90% from the blind, and then you have a 25% chance that if they still hit through blind that Spirit of Failure will trigger- giving you an abismally low 2.5% of attacks that will gain you energy. If you do them in reverse order, you should have your normal 25% Spirit of Failure energy boost. Yes, if you recast a stance while it is still active(mantra of recall, notably), it ends any previous stances and the new stance takes effect, even if it's the same as one you had on previously. So, you can cast Mantra of Recall to end your previous one for the energy gain, and you'll have the Mantra of Recall that you just cast active in order to gain energy from it once it recharges. For your post, I figured you understood what was going on with stances, but the way that you phrased the post, it was confusing to anybody who didn't already know what was going on- that's why I posted the clarification on it. __________________ Freyas- Spirits of War ~The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity

Feb 12, 2005, 04:09 AM // 04:09	#3
Fezz Lion's Arch Merchant Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Alabama Guild: Charter Vanguard	A little different sort of stacking. Evade and Block; Is Evade tested, then Block, or are they just stacked by percent, and you just either Evade, Block, or neither?